Posts by Joe Grundy

23

JWs - A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw (i make this point in - almost - every post) but having been brought up ('raised' for our us cousins) in a non-conformist fundy sect with 'rapture' aspirations, it wasn't that different.. i still have extended family members in it, or in that mindset, but we rarely discuss religion.

in particular, my sister and bil lost their son (my nephew) some years ago when he was just 13. their comfort is that he is in a 'better place' and i don't want to challenge that to them.. i keep up with all things jw here in this forum and maintain my academic interest and these are just my thoughts as an outsider, for what they are worth.. ime, those people who have heard of jws tend to lump them in with mormons and other crazies and have no knowledge or interest in them - other than to warn neighbours when they are about.. where i live should be prime 'witnessing' territory but they rarely come round, even in the recent leafletting campaign.

they are not as effective as the people who regularly call with the latest menus from the local curry/chinese/kebab houses.. on the occasions when jws have called, despite invitations to come in and have a cup of tea, etc., none has ever wanted to engage in conversation, far less progress to an invitation to a kh meeting or start a bible study (and i always present myself as an 'imterested householder').. my conversations with people in general and friends in the real world lead me to conclude that few people have heard of jws, those that have regard them as a minor irrevelant nuisance and that there is no interest in their message or beliefs.. a few months ago i did a 'drive-past' of the million pound seafront property in bangor, north wales that wt recently bought for use as a 'translation office' (ha ha!).

Joe Grundy

Thanks for the responses.

As a non sequitur, one of my earliest memories is when I was a child (perhaps 50 years ago) being in town with my mother and seeing a couple of men in the street. They must have had a sandwich board or some other means of being obvious because I asked who they were. 'Colpourteurs' she said, with a dismissive sneer. Why on earth that stuck in my mind I have no idea, but I can remember thinking that if they were doing what 'we' were all encouraged to do (spread the word, preach the gospel) why did she disapprove?

(To put this in context, my mother's mother firmly believed that someone she knew had died when her arms fell off because she was knitting (i.e. working) pn the sabbath. It doesn't come much more crazy than that.)

Just to re-emphasise, none of this is to mimise the harm that the JW cult does. But it's not alone.

I read recently about the GB edict that men should be MS by 23 and that women should only marry MS-potential men. It reminded me strongly of the stuff I was brought up with - and the biggest fear that cults/sects have, i.e. that people will marry outside the cult/sect. IME, especially where dating etc. rules were strict, potential partners could be found 'just outside' one's own sect/cult - and the willy is stronger than the brain sometimes.

The financial bits about WTBTS continue to fascinate me (as a former Fraud Squad commander) but as far as R&F goes I believe that the org is becoming less and less relevant to the real world. Proselitising just tp try to get people to log on to jw prg is a joke IMHO but it gives JWs something to do and (perhaps more importantly) it gives WT something to tell JWs what to do.

23

JWs - A View From Outside

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i never was a jw (i make this point in - almost - every post) but having been brought up ('raised' for our us cousins) in a non-conformist fundy sect with 'rapture' aspirations, it wasn't that different.. i still have extended family members in it, or in that mindset, but we rarely discuss religion.

in particular, my sister and bil lost their son (my nephew) some years ago when he was just 13. their comfort is that he is in a 'better place' and i don't want to challenge that to them.. i keep up with all things jw here in this forum and maintain my academic interest and these are just my thoughts as an outsider, for what they are worth.. ime, those people who have heard of jws tend to lump them in with mormons and other crazies and have no knowledge or interest in them - other than to warn neighbours when they are about.. where i live should be prime 'witnessing' territory but they rarely come round, even in the recent leafletting campaign.

they are not as effective as the people who regularly call with the latest menus from the local curry/chinese/kebab houses.. on the occasions when jws have called, despite invitations to come in and have a cup of tea, etc., none has ever wanted to engage in conversation, far less progress to an invitation to a kh meeting or start a bible study (and i always present myself as an 'imterested householder').. my conversations with people in general and friends in the real world lead me to conclude that few people have heard of jws, those that have regard them as a minor irrevelant nuisance and that there is no interest in their message or beliefs.. a few months ago i did a 'drive-past' of the million pound seafront property in bangor, north wales that wt recently bought for use as a 'translation office' (ha ha!).

Joe Grundy

I never was a JW (I make this point in - almost - every post) but having been brought up ('raised' for our US cousins) in a non-conformist fundy sect with 'Rapture' aspirations, it wasn't that different.

I still have extended family members in it, or in that mindset, but we rarely discuss religion. In particular, my sister and BiL lost their son (my nephew) some years ago when he was just 13. Their comfort is that he is in a 'better place' and I don't want to challenge that to them.

I keep up with all things JW here in this forum and maintain my academic interest and these are just my thoughts as an outsider, for what they are worth.

IME, those people who have heard of JWs tend to lump them in with mormons and other crazies and have no knowledge or interest in them - other than to warn neighbours when they are about.

Where I live should be prime 'witnessing' territory but they rarely come round, even in the recent leafletting campaign. They are not as effective as the people who regularly call with the latest menus from the local curry/Chinese/kebab houses.

On the occasions when JWs have called, despite invitations to come in and have a cup of tea, etc., none has ever wanted to engage in conversation, far less progress to an invitation to a kh meeting or start a bible study (and I always present myself as an 'imterested householder').

My conversations with people in general and friends in the real world lead me to conclude that few people have heard of JWs, those that have regard them as a minor irrevelant nuisance and that there is no interest in their message or beliefs.

A few months ago I did a 'drive-past' of the million pound seafront property in Bangor, North Wales that WT recently bought for use as a 'translation office' (ha ha!). My companion was impressed with the property but found it hard to connect it with the minor irrelevant nuisances who knock her door occasionally.

In summary, for all that JWs may believe that they are, and for all their rebranding with jw org etc., in the real world they remain a minor sect/cult that few normal people have any inyerest in or knowledge of,

(None of the above is intended to minimise or ignore the very real damage caused by the JW cult).

142

Governing Body Member Gerrit Loesch Must Eventually Take The Witness Stand In Child Molestation Lawsuits

by frankiespeakin in

with many more cases in the offing the zalkin lawfirm will press the issue again and again and force gerrit loesch to testify.

what say you?.

.

Joe Grundy

PS: It is always a good tactic in consumer-type disputes to obtain the name of the manager, customer services rep, etc. that you deal with and explain to them (always courteously, of course) that they will be named/sued personally as well as their parent organisation should the issue not be resolved. The parent organisation may accept vicarious liability (sometimes this is forced on them by law) but the knowledge of personal liability focusses minds.

In England & Wales, at least, each JW congregation is a separate legal entity, registered as such with the Charity Commissioners. The trustees (probably aka elders) are completely and personally and severally liable. Not a job I'd want and I hope that in due time as more wake up not a job that anyone would want. What would happen then?

Just speculatin'

142

Governing Body Member Gerrit Loesch Must Eventually Take The Witness Stand In Child Molestation Lawsuits

by frankiespeakin in

with many more cases in the offing the zalkin lawfirm will press the issue again and again and force gerrit loesch to testify.

what say you?.

.

Joe Grundy

This is, I think, worth mentioning. I never was a JW. It may only apply to England & Wales.

When I was a senior police officer/manager it was repeated many times during traing seminars related to diversity/discrimination/health & safety etc. issues that we - as managers - were personally liable for defaults and failures as well as the organisation. That seems to be a principle in E&W law.

I would not want to hold a position of responsibility in an organisation (far less the JWs, of course) and if I did I would be looking to take out some form of indemnity insurance.

Indemnity insurance would, of course, show a failure to rely on your god of choice to protect you and make you more attractive as a target of a civil suit.

3

Why I Am An Angry Atheist

by Joe Grundy in

why i am an angry atheist.

(i never was a jw, but the basics were not so different).. .

i was brought up (raised, for my us friends) in an off-shoot of the plymouth brethren gospel hall culture.

Joe Grundy

Why I Am An Angry Atheist

(I never was a JW, but the basics were not so different).

I was brought up (raised, for my US friends) in an off-shoot of the Plymouth Brethren Gospel Hall culture. Not as extreme as the Exclusive Brethren but not far removed. No clergy – every brother was expected to be a Bible Scholar – (not sisters, of course) and it’s not surprising that within a couple of years of their foundation in the 1860s they’d split into factions which would never speak to each other again, each convinced that they –and only they – had the ‘Truth’.

I knew none of this at the time, of course, nor that the time of their foundation (1860s-ish) coincided with the foundation of so many other sects/cults.

My earliest recollections, from the age of 3 or 4, are of Sunday morning ‘meeting’, Sunday afternoon ‘Sunday School’ and Sunday evening ‘Gospel Meetings’ in the Gospel Hall.

At the front of the hall, painted as a scroll on the wall in gold and green, were the words ‘God Is Love’. And we sat under that as we listened (mornings) to the thunder of the OT and (evenings) to the NT hoping that some poor soul would come forward to ‘be saved’. That generally didn’t happen apart from the poor disturbed bloke who got ‘saved’ regularly every week or two.

That was back in the 1960s. In the 1970s we moved geographically to a Welsh (English language) Baptist church. The theology was similar, but now there were ‘educationally qualified’ preachers, ‘the Rev Dr xxxxxx’ etc. doing the preaching. These were people who had been to university, studied biblical history and so on.

In the pre-internet days I started to study (as best I could) the history of the Bible, etc. It didn’t take long, even in those days, before there were more questions than answers.

I remember a conversation with an aged Church of England priest. He didn’t believe a word of it but was comfortable in the overall pattern.

Now, I am angry because I know that those people (almost exclusively men) who had studied KNEW (or at least had grave doubts about) that they weren’t preaching the ‘truth’. From the ‘nativity’ stories back to OT stories, and ultimately back to the ‘6,000 year old world’ as taught in Genesis they knew it wasn’t true and yet they insisted on teaching it to us.

Recently, I was putting my grand-daughter (5) to bed and we were having our bed-time story. Someone had given her a book of bible stories. We opened it – she discarded it as ‘crap’. Instead, we read a Princess Barbie (or something) story which she can, thankfully, recognise as pure fantasy.

I am angry because it took me so long to recognise the twaddle being fed to me. I am more angry because those who fed it to me knew better but chose not to. No excuse, I think.

48

Posters do you know of any cases where a devout JW was DF'd for Lesbianism?

by booker-t in

i think this is a hush hush topic among jws but i remember years ago at an assembly i saw two sisters(i am only assuming they were jws they could have been studies or relatives of jws) walking arm and arm like a married couple.

some of the jws looked at them like they had horns.

some of the jws moms were covering their small children's eyes and those two women were stared at like they had the plague.

Joe Grundy

88JM:

"I don't doubt that many child abusers have homosexual or bisexual orientations. At the same time, I'm sure other child abusers are entirely heterosexual too."

(I never was a dub).

There are many comprehensive studies on this subject, well worth reading. This reply is based purely on personal experience.

I was a police officer for 30 years, mostly as a detective supervisory/senior officer. I dealt with many cases of child abuse, some pretty horrific. More than I wish to remember, and many which I can't forget however hard I try.

IME, some abusers had been abused themselves. I experienced famlies where abuse had been the norm. I also dealt with abusers who were (to put it simply) just evil.

IME, sex was only part of it: sometimes it was just about power and dominance. When it was about sex it seemed to me that the abusers (generally but not exclusively male) wanted to have as much sex as possible (children/youngsters were easier) and some would have used a hole in a fence if that was all that was available.

IME, almost all abusers were heterosexual. Many were evil creeps - others were, on the surface, enirely indistinguishable from more 'normal' members of society.

7

And The Lame Shall Walk

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-paralysed-man-walks-again-after-breakthrough-spinal-treatment-2014-10.

fantastic!

patient had a severed spinal cord.

Joe Grundy

This is wonderful news. I note that the scientist concerned first wrote a paper contemplating this some 40 years ago.

Science is developing exponentially.

I had a conversation about this with my dentist this morning. As a student he was involved in stem cell research but there was (he said) a lot of pressure about foetal cells from those with a religious bent, for religious reasons.

As a human, I am encouraged that we are progressing as a species.

8

History of the church/Christianity, etc.

by Joe Grundy in

i have learned a great deal from some of the very erudite posters on this site (thank you).. for many years i've been interested in the history of the development of christianity, not only from its earliest days but through the reformation, etc., and through to the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries when denominations, sects, cults took off in all directions like exploding fireworks.. i was aware, in broad terms, of luther, calvin and the development of protestantism from which so many denominations and sects (including jws) arose.

i was vaguely aware of the schism (1,000 years ago) between the western (catholic) and eastern (orthodox) churches and was tangentially interested as to why it happened (if the 'east' was the home of christianity, how come the 'west' disagreed with it?).

i was quite interested to read, while living in cyprus, a greek orthodox english language bible which had a large section in the back about the schism.

Joe Grundy

I have learned a great deal from some of the very erudite posters on this site (thank you).

For many years I've been interested in the history of the development of christianity, not only from its earliest days but through the reformation, etc., and through to the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries when denominations, sects, cults took off in all directions like exploding fireworks.

I was aware, in broad terms, of Luther, Calvin and the development of protestantism from which so many denominations and sects (including JWs) arose. I was vaguely aware of the schism (1,000 years ago) between the western (catholic) and eastern (orthodox) churches and was tangentially interested as to why it happened (if the 'east' was the home of christianity, how come the 'west' disagreed with it?). I was quite interested to read, while living in Cyprus, a Greek Orthodox English language bible which had a large section in the back about the schism. It explained (of course) why the orthodox church was right and the catholic church was wrong.

All this stuff is interesting to me as an atheist/agnostic because religion has had such a huge influence in our world and continues to do so.

Well, I was recently given a book and for about the first time I am coming to understand a little better how all this stuff fits into the context of history, and I recommend it to other interested parties.

It is (don't laugh) 'European History For Dummies' - ISBN 978-0-470-97818-4 - by Sean Lang, published by Wiley, England 2011. Well written, easy to read, and best viewed as a 'taster' to spark interest for deeper studies. It's certainly helped my understanding (and I'm not ashamed of the label 'Dummy'!).

38

My jw mum threw us out.

by abbasgreta in

my brother (non-jw but became a christian 6 months ago) and i nursed my aged jw mother back to a semblance of strength over the last three weeks.. the elders were happy to pass the buck on to me, her da'd daughter and my bro.. he has been living with her for 3 months and has transformed her ill-kept home and garden and literally nursed her like a professional alone.

before i stepped in to help him care for her.

he repeatedly told her how much he loved her and was so caring, it brought a lump to my throat.. he has been going to church sunday mornings, telling her he 'was meeting up with friends' so as not to cause friction.but she knew where he had been.. we noticed a shift in her demeanour towards us (she knows i'm a church-goer) over the week-end and she started to.

Joe Grundy

'Apparently they are looking for a property in Pembrokeshire, on the Welsh border'

No, Pembrokeshire is as far west as you can go - the furthest from the border.

20

"You can't Disfellowship me ......."

by Phizzy in

if i ever get the threat of being df'd i think i will say :.

" the religion i left a few years ago no longer exists, you can't disfellowship me from a religion that i never had fellowship in !"..

i know this will make no difference at all, as would whatever i said if they had made up their minds, but it would point out how very very silly the whole idea would be.. any other ideas to briefly sum up what a stupid thing dfing is ?.

Joe Grundy

IMHO and IME it is ALWAYS good practice to obtain details of and identify INDIVIDUALS in a disputed situation.

Most jurisdictions allow legal proceedings against individuals and corporations and there is nothing better to concentrate a person's mind than the the fact that he/she is PERSONALLY liable.

This was drummed home to me as a manager numerous times in relation to health & safety/equal opportunities legislation (here in the UK).